Confident Ministry In Confusing Times II, How to Minister In Style

Praise the Lord, everyone. Good evening. Isn't this an exciting day? Now, let me ask you a question. If this were your 31st wedding anniversary, what would you do tonight? You'd go out and celebrate, right? Go out to dinner and take in a show and then maybe, you know, just spend the night someplace exciting, right? Dick and Ann Hickox. No, no. They're here at North Way. Give them God's praise. Let's stand up, Dick and Ann. Bless you guys. That's wonderful. 31 years. Well, it's only possible because he's alive. Let's stand and sing it together, shall we? He's alive. He is alive, I can see above the clouds and I can hear him call my name out loud. Well, he is alive, he is alive, he is alive, he is alive. He has come that I might have more lives than I've ever had before. Well, he is alive, he is alive, he is alive, he is alive. He has promised power from high to those who will receive the Holy Ghost. He is alive, he is alive, you are alive. You are alive. Lord, we sing it tonight with a deep assurance that it's true. Because in you we live and move and have our being and so we celebrate the joy of our Lord tonight. Let's sing it together. Celebrate, celebrate the glory of our God. Celebrate, celebrate his wisdom and his power. He has given to us the victory. Celebrate the glory of our God. And there is boldness of joy in your presence, in your presence. And there is boldness of joy, joy in the spirit of our God. And so we celebrate, celebrate the glory of our God. Celebrate, celebrate his wisdom and his power. He has given to us the victory. Celebrate the glory of our God. Celebrate, celebrate the glory of our God. Celebrate, celebrate his wisdom and his power. He has given to us the victory. Celebrate the glory of our God. Celebrate, celebrate the glory of our God. Celebrate, celebrate his wisdom and his power. He has given to us the victory. Celebrate the glory of our God. We celebrate the glory of our God. We celebrate the glory of our God. Oh, yes, Lord. Amen. I want you to turn to somebody this evening and give them one reason why you'd want to celebrate. Would you? I don't have anything I can say. Turn to someone you don't know and tell them one reason why you want to celebrate. Then let's join together and sing of his strength. Ready? I will sing of your strength in the morning, I will sing of your love. I will sing of your strength in the morning, I will sing of your love. Come on, men. I will sing of your strength in the morn, and I will sing of your love. I will sing of your strength in the morn, and I will sing of your love. For you are my fortress, my refuge in time of trouble. O my strength, I sing praise to thee. For you alone are my fortress, and my loving father. And forever I will sing my praise to thee. And I will sing of your strength in the morn, and I will sing of your love. For you are my fortress, my refuge in time of trouble. O my strength, I sing praise to thee. For you alone are my fortress, and my loving father. And forever I will sing my praise to thee. For you alone are my fortress, and my loving father. And forever I will sing my praise. Forever I will sing my praise. Forever I will sing my praise to thee. Amen. Go ahead and give the Lord an applause. We sang a song in our first year. Go ahead and be seated. Our first years together. How many remember it? Who was here our first years together? Part of the group. Let's put the words up. It's very simple. It's praise him, praise him with your voices, raise him on high. How many remember that song? All right. This is an oldies. It's oldies time here. And we heard this song done a different way that we just really got us kind of stirred to remember the goodness of the Lord and to lift his name on high on our lips tonight. And I want you just to sing it with us softly where you are and join in, and then we're just going to praise God with it. Because, you know, one thing I love about being in one place now for eight and a half years, one group of people, I can tell you that God is faithful. Some of you can say the same thing. I mean, I've seen people go through hell and come out victorious. That's why I want to lift the Lord's name on high tonight, because some people here tonight just might be facing what seems to be an attack from hell. But if you praise the Lord in the midst of it, we have a Savior that's come through hell and been raised and sat in the right hand of the Father on high. So let's praise him together. So here's how it goes. You know it, sing with us. Praise him, praise him with your voices, raise him on high. Praise him, praise him with your voices, raise him on high. He is the Lord of glory. He is the King of kings. He came to bring redemption's glory with our hearts dead at sea. Praise him, praise him with your voices, raise him on high. Praise him, praise him with your voices, raise him on high. He is the Lord of glory. He is the King of kings. He came to bring redemption's glory with our hearts dead at sea. Praise him, praise him with your voices, raise him on high. Praise him, praise him with your voices, raise him on high. He is the Lord of glory. He is the King of kings. He came to bring redemption's glory with our hearts dead at sea. Praise him, praise him with your voices, raise him on high. Praise him, praise him with your voices, raise him on high. He is the Lord of glory. He is the King of kings. He came to bring redemption's glory with our hearts dead at sea. With our hearts dead at sea. With our hearts dead at sea. We have overcome by the blood of the Lamb. By the power of His blood we will stand. We have overcome by the blood of the Lamb. And He will bring victory. Just the ladies, let's join hands. We have overcome by the blood of the Lamb. By the power of His blood we will stand. We have overcome by the blood of the Lamb. And He will bring victory. He's going to bring the victory. Everyone, one more time. We have overcome by the blood of the Lamb. By the power of His blood we will stand. We have overcome by the blood of the Lamb. And He will bring the victory. Just before we sing that one more time, you know, I've been thinking as we've been singing. How many people, just hold hands with someone, we need each other. How many races, how many classes of people, how many educational brackets of people through the ages have sought to overcome. To overcome oppression and struggle and difficulty. Dear ones, I've discovered something a while back that I couldn't overcome in my own strength. Kids, as you look at life, there's only one key to victory. And it's in knowing Christ. It's in knowing Jesus personally. The Bible says that through the blood of the Lamb, in other words, the sacrifice of His life. And our speaking it, the word of our testimony, we shall overcome every obstacle. You know, the answer to the race struggle in our nation isn't more laws and more decrees. It's the love of God in Jesus Christ. The answer to the economic oppression, the inequity of the world's wealth is not in trying to legislate and trying to dump aid. It's in the overcoming power of Jesus that opens a heart and causes it to share. Whatever tonight would be an oppressive, rebellious, difficult thing in your life, we can overcome together by the blood of the Lamb. Let's sing it one more time. We've overcome. We have overcome by the blood of the Lamb. By the power of His blood we will stand. We have overcome by the blood of the Lamb. And He will bring the victory. And He will bring the victory. Sing it all again. And He will bring the victory. And all God's people said, Amen. He'll bring the victory. Praise the Lord. Turn to someone you haven't greeted. Tell them right in the face. Tell them He's going to bring the victory to you. Go ahead. Go ahead and be seated. Well, everyone's moving and getting their seats. Praise the Lord. This is a family evening at North Way. And by that I mean lots of things we're going to share tonight concerning the whole family. And since a lot of the family, actually the majority, isn't here tonight, you're going to have to represent the whole family. Take back the messages that you hear and make sure your home group people and friends all know about it. Pastor Jeff wanted to watch some cartoons on family night. So we have to honor his request in just a minute. I want to welcome our visitors, by the way. I'm glad you came tonight. And we as a church recognize that you're a gift to us, visitors. And whether you come on a Wednesday night or a Sunday morning or any other of our gatherings, we're glad you're here. We want to give you a little packet. Are we ready with those, Ben? Why don't you go find some and we'll hand them out a little bit later then, if you wouldn't mind. All right. Leadership meeting. A week from Saturday, as I share the entire fall focus of ministry. Leaders, I know you're going to want to be there. Eight o'clock. Very, very exciting gathering. I'm anticipating it. By the way, be praying for the elders as we have an almost like an in-house retreat here over the weekend to confirm some of the things the Lord is saying to us. That's this weekend, elders. Friday evening and Saturday. Do you have Willie Woodpecker on there yet? Is he coming? Let us know. All right. By the way, if you've been visiting... There he goes. And you've not been to a newcomer's banquet or maybe you sat near someone who came. Folks, last week we had... Hello, listen now. This bears on your ministry. Just last Sunday, as a poor example, 14 people came to North Way. People in family units who said, we would like to know more about what it means to be part of the life of this church. Fourteen people in one Sunday. I think that's a praise to the Lord. But it requires you to take a little bit of initiative and say, well, you know, I sat next to this person. I remember their name and I got their phone number. If you've forgotten it already, then maybe in the future when I ask a visitor to stand on a Sunday morning, please welcome them. Let them know that you're willing to help them find their niche in this body of believers. If they're not ready to make any commitment, that's fine. But just let them know they're welcome, would you? This Sunday is the newcomer's banquet following the second service. Pastor Tom came to work this week. Praise the Lord. And rumor has it from Tom that he will be here on Sunday. But don't kick his ankle. No jokes about that. Imagine God put a holy halo around his body and you can't break through that. But he did ask me tonight to make mention of the upcoming singles weekend. And this is going to be interesting because it's kind of dovetailing with our Gary Smalley weekend. The singles weekend is just following on the 29th and 30th of September. Can we have that in overhead, please? Unplug your overhead. Paulie, no one loves you over there. There it is. I hope you can all see this overhead. Singles Seminar, the 30th, 29th and 30th. Dennis Miller is a very highly respected person in this realm of singles ministry. And I know we have flyers and everything coming to you. And David Teams will be doing some of the music. And plan on that singles. Let the word get out on that one. You can register in the hallway tonight. All right. Kids, we want to dismiss you. I'm sorry. You'll have to come back for the cartoons. I want to watch the cartoons. I'm just kidding. It's not really cartoons. It'll be difficult for you. Jeff, you want to mention Pioneer Clubs? Go get a microphone, please. Are we ready now, Ben? We found our visitors packets. Praise the Lord. Visitors, we're ready for you now if you're still ready for us. We're glad you're here. If you'll just wave your hand. Church, let's welcome our visitors. Let's give them a packet. Anyone? Wave your hand up. Let's see it. A couple over here. Thank you. Bob Kowalski. Can you come up here for a minute, please? Jack. I need some muscle. We want to be able to let you people see this, so they're going to move that. Starting September the 6th, on Wednesday night, we'll be starting our Pioneer Clubs again for the kids. And that'll be ages 2 years through 12 years. You let me know if that falls toward me. You notice I carried the plug and everything when they moved up. As I got older, I got wiser. And the ushers now have with them a brochure explaining a little bit about the Pioneer Clubs, if you're not sure. But you want to make sure if you have kids that you get one. Because on the back is the registration form to register. Now there's no charge to you. And each child gets his own book. And all we do is collect dues every week of 50 cents to help pay for the badges that the kids earn in the program. So if every family, there's enough room on here if you have 5 kids, for one family to have one form. If you have more than that, we'll pray for you. So if every family would raise their hand, and the ushers will come down and give these to, if you have children that is, between the ages of 2 years and 12 years. Actually if you have more than 5 children, I will fill out your form for you, because you deserve a rest. You want to make sure you fill that out tonight, because you'll be like me, and you'll forget to bring it back. And you can either put it in the offering basket later on this evening, or right in the back in the registration area is a place to put it back there in the back. Did everybody get one? Okay. Very good. Also parents, you'll notice that right next to the father's name and the mother's name, there's a thing that says, yes I will teach, or yes I will help. There's no gun in my pocket, but we could use your help. I was telling Pastor Jay just today that between Sundays and Wednesdays alone, there are 50 some teachers that teach in the back. That's a lot of teachers, and currently we need, I think it's about 6 teachers on Wednesday night, and 6 more for Sunday. And that's pretty good. They came to us, I thought that was real good. So if you have any opportunity, and you want to talk to me about that, please tonight, I'll be right in the back. Make sure you come back and find me tonight. We need assistants and teachers both. So if you could, I would appreciate that. Okay, let's dismiss the kids. All the kids stand up. And if you could just reach a hand out if you're close by one there. Just to kind of hold them still. Father, we pray for these squiggly worms we call kids. For their energy is an inspiration to me. And their intensity with which they want to serve the Lord is also an inspiration. And I pray tonight that as they go back into the back, that they will learn tonight. And it won't be just head knowledge, but it will be something in their hearts. And Lord, I just ask for your Holy Spirit to be back there and have place and peace to reign. And I ask in the name of Jesus. And all the kids said, amen. Okay, the 1st through the 6th grade, boys and girls, go back to the gym and be quiet. Don't let me go until it's over. All right, we're ready to go on this evening. The 4 and 5-year-olds up here on the right and the 2 and 3-year-olds will come up here. We'll make our caboose. By the way, here at North Way alone this year, Eden is going to have nearly 200 students. So, if you want to come for some peace and quiet and seeking God at the church, come after 3.30 on weekdays. Or 6 o'clock prayer, absolutely. We'll be here. You can get all the peace and quiet. We're going to be looking in the Word of God a little bit later and talking about some things that pertain to prayer and ministry and how God is directing us to go ahead in relationship to the Holy Spirit's ministry in our lives. Before we do that, I was talking with Pastor Jim earlier today. We feel that there is such a heavy warfare for peace in marriages. Don't put your hands up, husbands and wives. But in the last year, since last year about this time, say in your mind when school started, would you say your marriage has been marked by one unbroken kind of peon of praise and thanksgiving for nothing but ever more increasingly glorious relationship? The laughter now and the ribs are starting to break. Obviously, all of us realize that because we're human beings and because God is still working on the faults in our lives by His power, we need help in being able to relate. This particular seminar has received an awful lot of endorsements from people who have seen the best, as it were, in terms of people who are gifted in particular areas. We're going to give you an eight-minute sampling of what Gary Smalley and John Trent are like. Is John on this or just Gary? Just Gary. So it's even a little fresher than this. This is a couple of years old. If you're not married, one of two things. This is still an option for you because it's about relationships, as you can see, based on some of the things here. Or you can just consider the next weekend specifically for you, as Dennis Miller comes. And here's another thing. You may not even have any concern in your own life right now. I happen to know that a number of us do, but if you don't, maybe you know someone who doesn't even come to this church, whose marriage has been up and down, and you say, Well, I couldn't go and, you know, I couldn't tell him. If you need help, you can go to... Well, you'd be surprised. You'd be surprised how many people would thank you for taking an interest just by sharing with them, Hey, I'm going to this. Would you like to come with us? And benefit from some excellent instruction, and as I think you'll see, some very powerful kinds of insights that God's given these men. All right. I'm going to ask the Esthers to begin the process of turning the lights all out, and Jeff's going to try the screen for us. And, Mac, if we can lower this so that other people can see. All right, Jeff, go ahead and let's give it a try, shall we? Go ahead, Ben. Want to get this all out, please? Once in a decade, someone comes along who stuns you with their gift to effectively communicate fresh insights from God's truth. Gary Smalley is such a person, and his message has brought healing to thousands of relationships crying out for workable solutions. We're here in what looks like a typical, peaceful neighborhood. But, you know, if we could look through these walls, we would find the same thing I've been discovering over the last 20 years, that every one of these homes has its own brand of conflict. Hello, I'm Gary Smalley, president of Today's Family. I've been counseling with couples and speaking with thousands of people all across this country for the last 20 years, trying to discover what it is that keeps any relationship in harmony. Stay with us for the next few minutes, because I'd like to share with you a seminar experience where we cover the six basic principles that I have found keep any relationship in harmony. Now, that's whether we're single or married, that's whether we're at work, or whether we're at home. Now, let's give you a taste of what you'll discover at a Gary Smalley seminar. This one husband was having his personal devotions in Proverbs 31, and he was reading through it. He got to the section, verse 10, to the end, where it talks about this incredible woman, the virtuous woman. She does all these things, buys land, feeds everybody, and is industrious, economically wise, and all kinds of things. But she gets up every morning, makes sure everybody gets a meal, feeds the whole house, all kinds of things. And he says to his wife, honey, do you know about this section? And she said, yeah, I know about that section. He said, well, I know you want to be a godly person. She said, hey, I know about that section, because they were strained. He said, well, if you know about it, how come you don't get up every morning and make me a hot meal? And she looked across the table, and she said, dear, if you want a hot meal, light your cornflakes on fire. Is there a guy here that would say that your television set is more important than your wife? Don't raise your hand, because we wouldn't be able to get away with that. I mean, there's not a guy here that would say your television set is more important than your wife. But without realizing it, oftentimes we communicate that. Here's what I was violating. I was violating the biblical concept of honor. This next area is incredibly important, because I get the privilege to explain in this presentation right here what I think makes a woman so incredibly valuable and how to tap out of her built-in marriage manual. What we're going to do to women right now is honor you. We're going to raise your value. Maybe you didn't even realize some of the things I'm about to say, but I can hardly wait to say it, because I know this alone can revolutionize a relationship, married or single. I remember one night coming home after work, making the decision that I was going to value her. In fact, I went further. I decided to apply what it says in Ephesians 5. I was going to cleave to my wife. Leave my father and mother, cleave to my wife so the two of us can become one. The word cleave means glue yourself to your wife. So I was going to spend as much time as I could so she knew she was more important than anything else. So I came home this one night, and I was in the house. She said, what are you going to do tonight? I said, shopping. She said, I'll go with you. I said, what are you going to get? She said, I'm going to buy a blouse. I said, oh good, I'll go with you. I said, let's get a babysitter. She said, okay, if you want to go. So I went. Big mall. We show up at this place. We get into the first store. We go over to the blouse rack. We start looking at blouses. We look at the first blouse. Now we're going to another store. We didn't get the blouse back there. Now we're in a new store. Now we're wandering and we're looking at blouses. And I say, hey, how do you like this blouse? She says, yeah, it's okay. Then she did it to me. She says, what do you think of this dress for Carrie? I said, wait a minute. We're not here looking for dresses for Carrie. We're here looking for blouses. You know what I learned about myself? I wasn't shopping for blouses. I was hunting for blouses. I wanted to conquer the blouse. Hey, listen. You know what she wanted to do halfway through hunting for this blouse? She wanted to sit down and talk and have coffee. I couldn't. I couldn't concentrate. It's not enough for a seminar to motivate us. The real impact of the information comes in its ability to change our lives. I really felt comfortable in the seminar. I really felt that he understands women and has spent a lot of time talking with women. And I think he was very good at relating to women. Relating to men. What women are like emotionally. There's no place in growing up where you can really have anybody really teach you or train you how to be a husband or be a wife or be a father. And we found that Gary and his ministry and his books were the one place that clearly communicated and gave us some real how-to's as far as a married couple and parents. Gary's seminar would absolutely be life-changing. Without a doubt. He has got so much to offer and he has such a wisdom from God to share with others. We've designed six relationship principles that are not just for those who are having marriage difficulties but is for anyone who desires to deepen and strengthen their relationships. Especially those who want to avoid common pitfalls in the future. The incredible worth of a woman will be sharing what I believe is the greatest relational principle taught in all the scriptures. After interviewing over 30,000 women we've included in this session how a man can actually draw out of a woman her built-in marriage manual. How to energize your maid in 60 seconds or anyone who is fearful discouraged or losing energy. It's a method Christ continually illustrated with those he loved. Five keys to loving and lasting relationships. I've found that these biblical concepts are the number one reason why couples and families move into conflict. It's about being in harmony with our loved ones and friends. The tremendous value of a man. It's almost like God designed men to be effective lovers in their own home. This may come as a surprise to some men but God has built within a man the capacity to provide four essential ingredients that every healthy and lasting relationship needs. The secret of a close-knit family. After interviewing a number of very successful and happy families I'll be sharing with you their secret of becoming a close-knit family. The same secret that Christ used with his disciples. Finding fulfillment more than our cup can hold. Many of us miss fulfillment in our lifetime because we're looking in the wrong places. In this session you'll discover God's secret for dealing effectively with hurt feelings anger and fear that you might have life and that you might have it more abundantly. Well I hope you've caught our vision for helping people experience God's abundant life and all their relationships. You know it was years ago that someone said to me if it doesn't work at home don't export it. That's why all the principles we'll be sharing with you have already been filtered through our own family experiences. Your relationships. Won't you consider making an investment in your own family's future today? Gary has spent the last 20 years learning, teaching and writing about the needs of the family. Speaking in over 60 major cities throughout the world interviewing and teaching thousands of families. We're sure that this seminar will make a difference in your life. Whether you're single or married or married or single. Okay I hope that gave you just a little bit of a feel for what's going to happen. It's just a Friday evening and an all day Saturday. I believe that's the format. And if you have any other questions let us know. Someone will be at the registration table following the service tonight. The forms that you have are available for you and there's others I saw someone who'd been gone for a couple of weeks and hadn't seen me I guess for at least a month and they asked me for one of those update kind of things. And you know in a congregation like ours it's very difficult to imagine the kinds of things that people go through unless you're in touch with them. And we're going to pray together for each other right now and I want to give you a couple of things that I'm sure you'll want to be praying for as just part of your concern for our body. I shared on Sunday in the first service that one family had received some news on I think it was Friday or maybe even Saturday that was very a Saturday in fact very difficult. And we have visited with the family and they've asked us to pray specifically for healing and because we've been through battles before we know that it's a walk of faith and it's a walk of trusting God and it's also a walk of encouragement and support. In many ways we see victories of love and victories of overcoming grace in people's lives as God intervenes. We want to be praying for the Berantes Tom and Luann they have three kids and it's their middle child Luann who was just diagnosed over the weekend she'd been sick for about a month and couldn't get rid of a fever and those kinds of things and they have diagnosed her as having leukemia and we visited with them and prayed for them on Sunday and the family is strong and they're really sticking together and we're encouraging them in that and supporting them but we want to pray for them as a family that the Holy Spirit would not only just come around in comfort but also give them a measure of faith to believe that God will intervene and touch and so be praying for Amber that's the little gal's name she's eight years old and the doctors are encouraged by some of the initial signs and she's responding well to her treatments now so let's pray for her also you may have heard that that one of the young babies that the operant had taken in had suddenly died overnight a sudden what do they call it infant death syndrome right and just no reason it just happens to one child in so many thousand and there's no explanation but obviously a very difficult blow for any family and we want to remember them in these days Dennis Riley's mom who we've been praying for for a number of months did go on to be with Jesus and the family saw that really as God's mercy after a prolonged coma and following a major stroke but see these kinds of things are these are not uncommon and how many of you know that it's wonderful to be able to go to God in those moments but it's so much better if you're ready to go to Him because you've been walking in fellowship and it's just like you take one more step it's not like you have to go over this big long chasm to return to God and that's the purpose of our fellowship with Him is that we can be receiving strength and being lifted in our faith day to day if you have any personal needs tonight I want you to pray for those needs in your life and remember these couple of families that I've mentioned if you would we're asking God just to touch them and encourage them in these days if you're a visitor tonight I want to urge you just listen to the people in your group you don't have to participate if you don't like to but most people coming Wednesday night are familiar with things like praying out loud but you know it's amazing how many people aren't and I want to give you one promise in the word alright? you need to pick up your Bibles and get your head in gear so let's do it I want to give you one promise that as you hone in here I'm just getting prompted from the Lord to lead you in this let me turn to the book of Jeremiah and there's a scripture in chapter 29 in verse 12 not 11 not about the plans that we all know verse 12 then you will call upon me and come and pray to me and I will listen to you and you will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart I will be found by you declares the Lord and will bring you back from captivity you ready to search for the Lord tonight and just say Lord meet me in this particular area of need meet me right where I'm at tonight are you ready for that maybe the person next to you needs a word listen in your circles tonight be sensitive if the Lord prompts you with a scripture or prompts you with something that you might give as a word of encouragement as you pray do it let them know that God has a word for them as you share together alright let's stand shall we all throughout the auditorium and I want you to invite another person or two so there's three or four of you in a group don't be afraid to reach out and say hello if it's someone you don't know they'll understand they're anxious to pray go ahead share your needs would you sing everyone now soften my heart Lord soften my heart from all indifference set me apart to feel your compassion to weep with your tears I'm stopping to I'm stopping to weep to weep with your tears I'm stopping to with tears to weep with your tears I'm stopping to I'm I'm stopping to weep with I'm stopping to weep with your tears I'm stopping to with your tears I'm stopping to with your tears I'm stopping to weep with your tears I'm stopping to weep with I'm stopping to weep with I'm I'm stopping your tears your We will worship Him in righteousness We will worship Him alone Alleluia to the King of Kings Alleluia to the Lamb Alleluia to the Lord of Lords For He is the Great I Am He is Lord of Heaven, Lord of Earth He is Lord of all who live He is Lord of all the universe All praise to Him we give We will glorify the King of Kings We will glorify the Lamb We will glorify the Lord of Lords For He is the Great I Am We will glorify the King of Kings We will glorify the Lord of Lords We will glorify the King of Kings We will glorify the Lord of Lords Soften my heart from all iniquity Set me above to feel your compassion To weep with your tears Come soften my heart We want His power. I have people writing to me, we want the miracles, we want the flow of the Holy Ghost at North Way. But they're not here praying morning by morning. And I don't believe that flow of the Holy Ghost that people want to see happen. It's not going to take place until we say, God, remove the obstacles and teach me how to pray. I want to talk to you about a word that's been made alive to me in this summer. It's a very familiar word. If you've been in Christian circles at all, it's the word koinonia. What does that word mean? How many of you, it just rings a bell about some old fellowship group somewhere. The old ko